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Judas A Hero???

 
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Nutmeg
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:20 pm    Post subject: Judas A Hero??? Reply with quote

hmmm....an interesting article from todays Republic I thought we might find talkable....

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0407uajudas0407.html
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Vex Harrow
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Joined: 06 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoda thought, right hun? Thinking about this rot, which I often try not to -- it'd seem to me that whatever story he gets the short end of the stick. Throughout the Bible people who do the proper thing get screwed over just as often as the wicked -- and from the creature comfort point of view, it's often worse than what happens to the wicked.

Of course, if nothing else, didya see the crazy cosmology in the end of that Gospel? Downright Phonecian, if I don't say so myself.


Last edited by Vex Harrow on Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kytsune
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Joined: 06 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woah yeah. I saw this, what, yesterday?

Djenna'd pulled it up on the computer from the CNN article and we got to gander at the lovely recombined characters. I know the script, but I couldn't read it for my life. My linguistics studies didn't quite include those regions very deeply.

However, there are some things that I must say about the whole Judas stuff.

For one, I believe that Catholicism does see him as The Betrayer, but his reasons weren't exactly what most people might expect. He came from a long line of expectants who were waiting for a Warrior Messiah -- not just any Messiah, but one who would raise armies and strike down the Romans. And bring the Children of the YHVH out of their second bondage and to rule over the Earth. However, Jesus had no such intentions, and he wasn't that Warrior Messiah as they thought was promised.

So when Judas betrayed him, the story goes, he was attempting to force Jesus to take up his mantle as that General and lead them to glory -- of course, he was sorely disappointed by that outcome.

Now comes the Gospel of Judas. Which, hilariously enough, reads a lot like all the other Gospels and other Biblical works (which I think is great because it is actually referred to as a Heretical Text so the Catholic Church knew that it existed.) Furthermore, it is a Gnostic Gospel, this means that it speaks directly to the existence and power of the Christ and his Discipleship and even has its own cosmology (which is a little at odds with Genesis, can we say?) The Self-Originated God and all its hosts of angels bringing out 32s and 72s Earths and Heavens.

Crazy stuff. The Secrets of the Universe.

And then there is this weird "conspiracy" element. Whereas in the Gospel of Judas, telling the other side of the story, we see that Judas was put up to the task of "betraying" Jesus by the guy himself! Judas didn't go off on his own, he didn't have any special adgenda for his own people -- he was following the orders of the Son of his God. And he has been scathed, hated, and mistreated for what he did -- as Jesus did warn him he would.

Just another terrible immorality of the YHVH, I doubt that the creature has any real respect for it's "children" beyond the tools that they are. It uses them like tissue paper, blows snotwads all over their self-respect, and then tosses them in the wastebasket with strange promises of exaltation in the future. Disgusting.

So it brings to question: why does this deity need to do these things? Is it for some reason beholden to some sort of strange cosmological designs and rules that require certain events to happen through humanity for it to be empowered? It seems to me that Jesus could have been given up to the Romans through much simpler means whereas he gave his own position away without conspiratorial artifice. But no, instead he beats his 13th follower (who loves him dearly) into a tool to create the diversion.

The best part of the Gospel, in my opinion, though is really the cosmology about the creation of the universes and what sounds a lot like the origin of YHVH.
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Chojin
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand what you're saying here but here's where I'm trying to understand:

Just another terrible immorality of the YHVH, I doubt that the creature has any real respect for it's "children" beyond the tools that they are. It uses them like tissue paper, blows snotwads all over their self-respect, and then tosses them in the wastebasket with strange promises of exaltation in the future. Disgusting.

So it brings to question: why does this deity need to do these things? Is it for some reason beholden to some sort of strange cosmological designs and rules that require certain events to happen through humanity for it to be empowered? It seems to me that Jesus could have been given up to the Romans through much simpler means whereas he gave his own position away without conspiratorial artifice. But no, instead he beats his 13th follower (who loves him dearly) into a tool to create the diversion.

The best part of the Gospel, in my opinion, though is really the cosmology about the creation of the universes and what sounds a lot like the origin of YHVH.

I have to inquire about the phrase: "Just another terrible immorality of the YHVH"

Is this based on the above stories in conjunction with other stories in the bible itself? Because really we have to ask ourselves (and me being heretical to my own Catholic faith by even questioning it) who wrote the Bible? God or a bunch of people with a certain point of view? You can take the existance of the Gospel of Judas and other rejected (and sometimes incorrectly labeled Gnostic just because its not in the existing Bible as is) text like the the Gospel of Thomas as proof that the Bible was compiled by men and men decided what was in and what was out. So if we take the bible being written by Man and not God then we can also assume that God isn't at fault at the foibles of man and all the horrible crap we do.

If there's really anything to gain from the bible, which a lot of people seem to miss, is really only two things: Don't be a jackass to others and most importantly (the one everyone seems to forget) is that we have free will. God loved us enough that we have the choice to do anything. We can choose to be good, or we can choose to be evil. Hell, even the concept of good and evil are ambiguous in themselves. The reason why Judas is a "betrayer" is because he had the choice. It was his own free will. The problem with the world is this idea of predestination and prophecy. Which incidently come from MEN who claim that they have been talking to God. I dunno about you, but any time a person has been saying they've been talking to God, things usually don't work out pretty well. And we're talking about a long line of yahoo's that have claimed to talk to God from evil Popes to George W. Bush.

I really don't understand the idea of prophecy while we're at it. Because it's illogical. Use Occam's razor on this conundrum. Is the idea of a creator who apparently gave us free will at fault at the horrible things men do to each other or is it the free will we have that gives us the will to do the horrible things to each other? The simpler answer is usually the right answer, and in this case we can assume that it's Man that causes his own suffering and pain, not some floaty deity in the sky. Prophecy only seems to serve Man in that Man seems to be unwilling to accept the idea that they really are on their own. That it's really the greatest gift anyone could have bestown on us. Free will gives us true identity. Fee will is a great gift but itself isn't "evil" or "good".

To put it in perpective, let's use a modern day example. You say that the deity, or what people worship in Christianity is immoral because it uses people for it's own ends and means. As tools rather than as people. Only to be thrown away like so much used tissue. This is putting God or Sheba or Yawgmoth or what have you in the frame of playing a sandbox game like Roller Coaster Tycoon or more aptly the Sims. There's two ways to play the Sims. One way you can dictate everything your little sims do from eating, crappy, making love and going out and getting a job. The second way is to start up the game and let them be and do as they please, for better or for worse. Now of course the sims are more likely to end up crapping themselves and never taking a shower and sitting in a corner while they babble incoherently to themselves. But if you think about it, that's pretty much what was the social daily life of early man Wink So life sucked a lot, but man had free will. Then some yahoo has a dream and declares it prophecy, and two things happened after that: 1) The prophecy was "fullfilled" through sheer coincidence or 2) the prophecy was so vague and broad that it ended up fullfilling itself given enough time. This is where all the trouble happens, this is when people started blaming some God or spirit in the sky for their own problems rather than facing fault on their own.

You can take this as a logical equation: God is immoral. Okay. God made Man. Okay. Man deams morality to be good. Okay. Man has a concept of morality and amorality. How? Because if we deem morality to be something good, and good is things man strives for and god created man, wouldn't god have a concept of what morality is and immorality is? And if god has a concept of morality, wouldn't god strive to be moral? Why would god reject the concept of morality if morality existed?

So now to your question. Why does this deity need to do these things? Is the deity really DOING these things at all? Think back to our Sims game. After you play with yoru sims, and you make them do everything from pooping to sitting up and standing and washing the dishes and getting a job and buying stuff for them, are they really separate entities or are they really just puppets? Now think about your daily life. Think about when you eat, and poop and make love and work and get paid and walk down the street, are you being commanded by a deity or are you doing it on your own free will? We aren't sims. We're much more complex than that. It's my belief that god or sheba or yawgmoth doesn't actually DO anything. God created the universe, and then let it do it's thing for better or for worse. Because if god DID something, it would ruin everything. Existance would cease to exist and only become the will of the god. I believe that a god created us, or rather created a universe. Because really, why would guy put so much attention on some backwater planet spinning around the arm of a spiral galaxy in the boonies of said galaxy that exists among possibly billions of other galaxies? We've learned a long time ago that we are NOT the center of the universe. We are NOT the special snowflakes we've always assumed we are. How selfish can we be if we believe that a god takes extra special care and attentive to OUR needs when we're not the sole living beings on this planet. I mean really, we're selfish, we bitch at God when things go bad and kill us, but we don't bitch if a hurricane comes out to wipe out a bunch of ants in an anthill.

There's a book by a jewish rabbi named Harold Kushner, called When bad things happen to good people. It deals with Omniscience vs Omnipotence. It is his belief that god is omniscient but not omnipotent. If you have the time to, try and get the book.

Now on to the whole idea of the Gospel of Judas. It's yet another old piece of apocrypha that was found some time back. Now keep in mind, anything regarding religious text is essentially apocrypha until a bunch of people declare it's not. The bible itself is apocrypha that certain people believe it's not. Hell even in Christiandom there's certain books that the Catholics consider cannon in the bible and the protestants do not. There's gospels attributed to nearly every one of the Apostles. The bible was created as a way to streamline all this information, the grand majority of it written decades after many of these apostles and jesus of course kicked the bucket. Putting in two things, saying that it was written by god and using a human hand as a vessel and then later stating that if you put any changes to the book you'll go to hell and burn up and blah blah blah were great ways of preserving it. But the people that compiled the text forgot one really, really big thing: The universe changes. Cept the weird part is we seemed to have forgotten that entirely. Take anti-catholic sentiment. The funny thing about anti-catholicism is that the arguments I hear that are used against catholics don't really stand up to today. Obviously it doesn't stand up to today. The catholic institution, if you really want to look at it, is extremly dynamic, reletively speaking. Compared to say, Moore's Law when looking at technology changing, yeah, it's slower than mollasses out of a jar in the middle of winter. But if you compare the churches changes to a much, much older institution like Natural Selection. Things hustle and bustle in the Catholic church faster than you can say Ecumenical Council.

The real problem is that people are in a strange kind of flux. We want change, yet we don't want change. It's a weird doublethink that somehow keeps us in balance of ourselves. Anytime someone digs up some text about how Jesus drank a lot or how Judas was really a hero because god made him do it it gives others a chance to say oh see! SEE, the Church is EVIL because they've been hiding this from us! God must be EVIL because it contradicts something ELSE in a book. Sometimes people even die because of this. How really sad. You know, sometimes I think that if God could really dynamically change and interact with our lives, I would think that god would have erased any chance man could come up with the concept of a god in the first place. It only leads to trouble, because eventually you'll have people saying that God wants you to do this, so they do it. And a lot of those times, it just causes the suffering of others.

I could go on, but I babble enough. And I hate writing things down on message boards Wink I'd rather talk with you on this one on one, because I enjoy what you think and how we have conversations and argument and what not.

But if I have a point at all with my post, it's really simple. I don't think god is sadistic. Because if you take the same exact story, and you place it in a different frame of context. Then it was just a man who betrayed another in his own free will. Unless you're dante, cause Brutus is getting gnawed on by Satan just as much as Judas is in his circle of hell.
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Kytsune
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, looks like everyone's going to have to miss out on the wonderful conclusion of this discussion -- it was played out amost entirely in an IM window and I don't have the history anymore.

Meanwhile, the conversation is still open.
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Nutmeg
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytsune wrote:
Well, looks like everyone's going to have to miss out on the wonderful conclusion of this discussion -- it was played out amost entirely in an IM window and I don't have the history anymore.

Meanwhile, the conversation is still open.


D'oh >_<"""
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jorwyn
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:33 am    Post subject: Reopening The Discussion Reply with quote

Now, think about it. The Bible says that God is omniscient. Obviously, he would then know that Judas would betray Jesus. In fact, a "betrayal" is needed in order for God's master plan of sacrificing his own son to work. Personally, I've never had an issue with Judas. My issue has always been with an entity that can, at one point, order another man to kill his own offspring, then relents. Centuries later, he offs his own kid instead. How twisted is that?
And we're supposed to believe God loves us. I don't want that kind of love! How whacked does one have to be to worship the God of Great Squishiness?
Thou shalt not kill!
(Unless I tell you to. Then you wipe out man, woman, child and sheep.)
... The Crusades all make sense, to be honest.
Judas wasn't evil. He was a man trapped in a bad place. And he hung himself in the end. I think our forgiveness and understanding is merited, not enmity. Why don't people hate Pilot? He's the one who sentenced their messaih to death. No, people mouth the words "He had to. Jesus had to die for us to be saved." Why can't they extend that forgiveness to Judas? Why does the tool get blamed for the works of the wielder? Christianity is such a weird religion.
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